Matt Traum: 0:02

Welcome to the Aerophone Academy podcast with me, Matt Traum.

Alistair Parnell: 0:06

And I'm Alistair Parnell. Join us each month as we discuss the wonderful world of wind controllers and you get the very best information and answers to your questions.

Matt Traum: 0:18

The Aerophone Academy podcast is the source for accurate information on wind controllers, so make sure you subscribe to the podcast.

Alistair Parnell: 0:26

And while you're at it, why not check out www. isax. academy?

Matt Traum: 0:32

and patchmanmusic. com.

Alistair Parnell: 0:35

Welcome everybody to episode nine of the Aerophone Academy Podcast. Now, this is actually going to be a two-parter because we've got such a fantastic guest with us for these next two podcasts. We really think it's worth delving deep into this visitor we've got, so you'll all have heard him play, this guy that we're going to feature. You've definitely heard him play, but now's your chance to get to know the man behind the sound. My name's Alistair Parnell. I'm coming to you from Nottingham in the UK and let me introduce my co-host. That's Matt Traum. Hi, Matt.

Matt Traum: 1:15

Hey, Alistair, great to talk to you. And I'm coming from Cleveland Ohio, suburb of Cleveland Ohio, and our guest is coming from California, so we're all over the world today.

Alistair Parnell: 1:24

Fantastic. So introduce us, Matt, to our special guest.

Matt Traum: 1:28

I'd love to. Now this is going to take a minute or two before we bring on Judd, because he has one heck of a resume here. Okay, so you may not have heard of Mr. Judd Miller, but surely you've heard his work if you go to movies or listen to records. He has one heck of a list of accomplishments. He's arguably the top EVI player in the world. He's performed with countless big-budget movie soundtracks and also on the albums of the world's top recording artists. Judd's a renowned leading exponent of the EVI, the electronic valve instrument, and his expertise on the instrument and his sound design skills has him as a first call studio musician and one of the most popular musicians for top movie scores. Before the EVI, Judd also played trumpet in several top films, Hollywood films, including Humanoids From The Deep, which was one of the first James Horner films that James Horner scored. He played on Rocky II, Rocky IV, Star Trek II, among many others.

Matt Traum: 2:27

Judd has written pieces of music. One called "A Short Visit" was recorded by Tom Scott in 1987 on his Streamlines album. And check out this amazing fact In 1989, Judd Miller was on three out of the five Academy Award-nominated movies for Best Score. The Best Original Score nominees in 1989 were the Milagro Beanfield War, the Accidental Tourist Gorillas in the Mist, rain man and the fifth one was Dangerous Liaisons. But he was on three of those five and Milagro Beanfield War was the one that won that year. This is quite an incredible accomplishment there.

Matt Traum: 3:07

His skills, his electronic sound design skills, have been just world renowned and they've been used on recordings with the Yellow ackets and Michael Brecker, Peter Erskine, Vince Mendoza. I think he worked on three albums with Michael Brecker, including his famous EWI albums, and those sounds that you're hearing Michael Brecker play on EWI are quite a bit his. Some of the other artists he's performed and recorded with Herb Alpert recently, fairly recently, played on the Come Fly With Me album. He can maybe tell us a little bit about that, because Herb Alpert's one of my all-time idols. Other people Barbra Streisand, the Yellow ackets, David Benoit, Vince Mendoza, Christopher Cross, Bobby McFerrin, the Rippingtons, S tewart Copeland of the Police he did a project with him. The composers Judd has worked with over the years Maurice Jarre, John Williams, Henry Mancini, Alan Menken, Danny Elfman, James Newton Howard, James Horner, Bill Conti, and again, the movies that he's performed on are movies that we've all seen.

Matt Traum: 4:09

Uh, movies like Adam's Family, City Slickers, Dead Poets Society, Defending Your Life, Albert Brooks film, love that film, Fatal Attraction, A Few Good Men, Ghost, Gorillas in the Mist, Karate Kid II and IV, Little Mermaid, Planet of the Apes, Pocahontas, Police Academy 5 and 7, Pretty in Pink, Titanic, Unforgiven, and it goes on and on. If you're interested in the complete list and to learn more about Judd Miller, just Google Judd Miller, Patchman Music, and I've got a tribute page that I've maintained for him for probably close to 20 years now. With that said, shall we introduce the great, great Judd Miller?

Judd Miller: 4:47

Thank you. Well, thanks, Matt.

Alistair Parnell: 4:49

Welcome Judd.

Matt Traum: 4:49

Well, he's great. He's not late, but he's great.

Judd Miller: 4:53

So late, late, late.

Alistair Parnell: 4:55

Thank you, yeah, really good to have you with us, Judd.

Judd Miller: 4:57

Thank you to both of you.

Alistair Parnell: 5:05

So that is really one amazing resume and, you know, I think we could probably make about 16 episodes just on your history, Judd, but we're going to try and narrow it down just a little bit. So, if it's OK with you, we're going to kind of take things in a sort of a chronological order. And how about we ask you first how and why did you get into music? What kind of age were you? What was your first kind of foray into the world of music?

Judd Miller: 5:36

Okay, I started playing the trumpet in fifth grade, so I guess I was around 10, 11. My dad had a trumpet. He played trumpet up until he went into World War II, so he was 18 or 19. And he had his trumpet. It was under the bed so I used to take it out and play it. But then I started playing in fifth grade. So, yeah, 10 years old and I was living in Brooklyn at the time. I moved out to California when I was 19. So that's when I started playing trumpet.

Judd Miller: 6:09

I was pretty good on trumpet Trumpeter's Lullaby in seventh grade, Bugler's Holiday in eighth grade, Virgin de la Macarena in ninth grade, which that's a pretty good piece. And then, through high school, started college at Brooklyn College, still just playing trumpet. Played six summers in the Catskills great, those were great, great, great reading experiences and playing music. Some of my favorite summers were those and moved out to California when I was 19, and then I was at UCLA. So I'll take it to that point and wait for another question. But still, just trumpet, not writing or doing anything else, just a trumpet player, yeah.

Alistair Parnell: 6:51

Were those early experiences kind of a mixture of classical and kind of jazz and popular music, or did you kind of concentrate on one particular style?

Judd Miller: 7:01

Not so much jazz, more classical and more of a trumpet playing, more, like you know, Trumpeter's Lullaby. You know, like Rafeal Mendez, Doc Severinsen, I started appreciating jazz more, not when I was 10, but more when I was 15, 16, you know, and getting into high school. So I played in the All- Borough, all- city bands trumpet. In eighth grade I got to play at Carnegie Hall. I played the trumpet solo to American In Paris. That was my debut. So I was a good trumpet player.

Alistair Parnell: 7:38

And then college for you was UCLA.

Judd Miller: 7:42

Yeah, two years at Brooklyn College. Then I moved out here and I was at UCLA.

Alistair Parnell: 7:49

And my notes here mention somebody who was quite well known, and that's Mr. Frank Sinatra. How does he fit in at this point?

Judd Miller: 7:58

So I moved out in the fall of 1972 and then started UCLA and then in about May or June of 73, they had this yearly uh, the Frank Sinatra Awards, and he gave out awards to uh all different areas of music. Could be uh, vocalists, pop and classical, and then there was classical music and pop, jazz, so there were eight, eight awards each year and so I tried out, for there was like a first and second place in four categories. So I got to. I won in 1973 on trumpet. I won the second place, uh interesting, Michael Wolff won the first place and he's he's had a very nice career, Michael Wolff, the keyboard player.

Judd Miller: 8:47

So I, I it was in June of 73 I played, uh played a Chuck Mangione piece that I did an arrangement for the big band called The Feel Of A Vision, which was originally I think it's on the Friends In Love album and it featured Marvin Stamm on the record. So I did an arrangement of that and played that. I was 19 years old and I got to meet Frank that night and he said some kind words to me and it was very nice.

Alistair Parnell: 9:14

And he presented the prize to you, kind of thing. Did he judge,

Judd Miller: 9:17

He presented the prize and so I won second. So I was able to come back two years later and audition again. If you won first place then you can't go back, so I won second. So I was able to come back two years later and audition again. If you won first place then you can't go back, so I won second. So then in 75, I went back and I won first place. I played some different music. The next song I played was a Chuck Mangione piece. It was Legend of the One-Eyed Sailor. That was the piece I played in 70. But still no EVI, just that was Flugelhorn. I was a Chuck Mangione fan, and a Herb Alpert fan, and a Chet Baker fan, and Freddie Hubbard and Miles. Okay, I don't have to go into all the trumpet players, but they all had a deep effect on me back then.

Matt Traum: 10:03

We happen to have a recording. We've gone to the archives in Washington DC, the National Archives, and found a recording of Frank Sinatra. You got that, Alistair.

Alistair Parnell: 10:13

I do indeed, here he comes.

Speaker 5: 10:16

And then, finally, we come to Judd Miller, who is our pop instrumental trumpet player. Good performance, Judd. Tremendous performance. You know I've played Las Vegas many times, but I'm no betting man. But I'd like to put my money on a sure winner. In this case it's Judd Miller. Thank yo u.

Matt Traum: 10:45

Not bad!

Alistair Parnell: 10:46

The man himself, wow!

Judd Miller: 10:47

Yeah, not bad, that's beautiful, yeah.

Judd Miller: 10:52

Yeah, I want to say one thing about Frank Sinatra. I had, by the time I met him, close to 60 Sinatra vinyl records, I think it was 57. I was a big Sinatra fan, totally because I I listened to all that stuff going through high school also we were talking about some acoustic trumpet and I.

Matt Traum: 11:11

Legend has it, I've been told that the 1939 classic Wizard of Oz. There was a part in there that you played that most people don't realize- and this was on early EVI. There's a part where those blue monkeys, the blue flying monkeys, are marching around. They're going oh we, oh, we, oh. You know that horn part behind it is da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da, da da.

Judd Miller: 11:34

That was yes.

Matt Traum: 11:35

Now, that's you, apparently. Now, which synthesizers were you using at that time?

Judd Miller: 11:46

It was me, but it was Nyle more because he's older than me.

Matt Traum: 11:47

I see, and and that's that's pre, that's pre- Kontakt, and you were using what a tube, tube synthesizers or...?

Judd Miller: 11:49

Pre-electricity, I don't know. But also, uh, in 1939 was the wind in Gone With The Wind and I played on that too. I was the sound of the wind.

Matt Traum: 11:57

The trumpets are in fifths on that part. That. That. How did you do that? Was that overdubbed or was that a single

Judd Miller: 12:04

Oh no, there was no samplers. That was with a harmonizer. No, that was Nyle.

Matt Traum: 12:10

Oh, so two of you then. I see.

Judd Miller: 12:12

Nyle was playing the fifth below above me. I was playing the fifth below.

Matt Traum: 12:22

So how did you get started in the studio? How do you work into that type of thing right out of college? Well, at UCLA.

Judd Miller: 12:29

I met some musicians there, you know, playing in the jazz ensemble and smaller groups, started meeting people James Horner was there at that time and then, you know, formed bands with the guys you know that worked there and then I met friends of theirs and I started getting work on trumpet like 1976. There was another very good friend of mine, Dana Kaproff, who was scoring TV and movies at a young age and I was working with him or James Horner, and then in working with those people, getting to meet the musicians that worked in the studios in the mid-70s and you know the contractors who contracted the work. It was a nice period there and there was a lot of work for musicians. Then in the mid-70s they were using trumpet players on, you know, all the TV shows and stuff. It was a different musical atmosphere than as far as the work scene.

Judd Miller: 13:30

You know we're talking almost 50 years ago. It's 75. Yeah, it's just 2025 coming up. It was really great. You know I work with some of the greatest musicians you know that were playing from the sixties, late fifties, sixties into the seventies. Some of the just the greatest musicians you know. Uh, it's very fortunate.

Matt Traum: 13:51

Absolutely. So one thing I didn't mention was the any of the TV work. You did any. Did you do any acoustic trumpet TV type recordings?

Judd Miller: 13:59

Sure, a lot. I mean, the first work was TV work at Universal Studios. I can't remember a lot of the shows. One show I worked on a lot was with a good friend of mine. Joe Conlan did Simon and Simon, but that was around 1980. But there were shows earlier. You know, I did some love boats and you know, just freelance work, just different things, would you say. The TV work came know, just freelance work, just different things.

Matt Traum: 14:26

Would you say the TV work came first, then the movies, or was it concurrent?

Judd Miller: 14:29

I'd say the TV work came first, and then, well, 1978, that's when James Horner, you know, started doing his movies, and then my friend Dana was starting to do movies then too, 78, 79, 80. And then it kind of kicked in, you know, was doing just a lot of movie work on trumpet, which was fun, I got to say it was. I could see things changing, though, you know, from the mid seventies into the eighties. You know, as far as my musical, what I was interested in and everything and the role of how I felt doing that session work. That was a whole other type of work than I was doing earlier, doing more live gigs, playing with bands, doing things on the weekend, casuals, weddings, bar mitzvahs, all that stuff, and playing in the Catskills, doing studio work. It's intense, you know. Sure I did it. I, you know, looking back, I did it, I was there.

Alistair Parnell: 15:32

And Judd, what did that look like? Did that- you know. Would you be sent to score in advance, would you? You'd have several rehearsals, then you'd have several days of recording. What did that side of things look like?

Judd Miller: 15:50

No music was given out. You went there, didn't know what you had to do. It could have been total exposure, like on some James Horner movies. It was for me, it was nervy, I mean it got to me. But somebody like you know maybe the greatest Malcolm McNabb that's. You know he was just an amazing player for 40 years in the studios, first trumpet, you know, symphony, that kind of playing John Williams or anything, or fitting in with a big band too, and I never felt I was that. You know I wasn't that caliber of player, but I was certainly a very good player and good enough to play, doing that kind of work at that time.

Alistair Parnell: 16:27

Yeah, I find that interesting, Judd, because I mean not to make any kind of comparison at all, but I think for people that are listening, I think it's very easy for people to see these players and hear them on albums and things and just think, oh, these guys are amazing, of course they're amazing, but sometimes they easily think these guys must find it so easy because they're doing this stuff all the time. And actually when you hear someone speak very honestly, like you've just done for us, just then and you realise, no, actually a lot of people didn't find it that easy and it was pretty nerve wracking to sit in on these gigs and do this work and I think that's kind of helpful for people to know that. You know, it's not the sort of thing we just sit in and play. It's hard work and it can be very stressful, right?

Judd Miller: 17:16

It was for me. I wasn't doing it that much when I started and they, you know, the more you do anything, the more you build up your, your resilience to doing it. It seemed that it didn't phase the players. That were some players. It didn't phase because they were just. That was their mindset to, to just have that perfection.

Judd Miller: 17:38

And I feel like being a trumpet player, that kind of dabbled in playing jazz and doing all kinds of things, that I wasn't as focused in that. But certainly I, you know I did it and as the work got less, which it still is, you know, only the top players now are doing that kind of work. Now you know the ones that are really consistent, that just don't miss and they're just, they're just so consistent, they're reading and everything and I really respect that. That's something. Um, especially when I got the evi I, I moved away from wanting to do that on the trumpet.

Judd Miller: 18:21

I feel that the trumpet got me to a certain point and, for whatever reason, the way that my things unfolded for me, I feel fortunate and everything that I moved on from that. I don't think I would have continued doing that kind of work or even playing the trumpet if I didn't move on to finding the electronic valve instrument and Nyle. And moving in that direction gave me a whole new outlook and I think that playing the trumpet led me to that. I never felt like, oh, I'm going to keep playing the trumpet and double. I felt that I had to give that my all. It was time to move on from playing the trumpet.

Alistair Parnell: 19:09

So that leads us on very nicely to you know. How on earth did you get into EVI? How did that all begin?

Judd Miller: 19:16

I could remember the night. I remember the place. It was at a hotel downtown. I was playing a casual it was, you know, could have been a wedding or something and a sax player, very, very fine woodwind player who passed away recently, Terry Harrington, who might have had a, might have had a wind synth, I don't know, but he, you know, he was a fantastic musician and did the Simpsons for I don't know 25 years. It was just amazing. He just said to me you know, Judd, the kind of player you are, have you checked out this instrument, you know? And I said, well, I saw it at an AES show. I saw this guy, but I, no, I haven't. He said you should check it out, I think you might be interested in it. So that's so. I checked it out. I called Nyle, probably 1980-ish I'd say that's when it was and when I played trumpet I had a band, Baked Potato 1978-79. It was a great band and there's tapes available, but that's pre EVI and I was playing trumpet and flugelhorn. It was just a great band.

Matt Traum: 20:24

I have a recording of you from 1980. It says Pacific Ocean, All That Jazz. Is that the name of the group in the album, or that was the name of the band, Pacific Ocean.

Matt Traum: 20:33

Okay, and there's a track on there I'd like to play just to kind of show people Judd's tasteful playing. I think he's maybe playing flugelhorn on this. It's called Coast Highway. I think you've recorded it a couple times. There's a few recordings of this out there and a beautiful kind of West Coast smooth jazz kind of sound from 1980.

Matt Traum: 21:33

So I'd just like to say I just really love your playing. I think you know Herb Alpert's great, but he's got nothing on you. I mean, your style is just fantastic and I have a lot of recordings that you've been kind enough to send me over the years and I just enjoy that sound, that West Coast kind of sound I call it. We don't have that kind of group here in the Midwest in Ohio. It seems to be kind of from out there. Do you have any comments about that era?

Judd Miller: 22:01

That was a beautiful time to play. You know that I was getting out and playing. See, I was doing that in addition to going and playing in the studios and to go play in a small group. Big band is different. If you're a horn player in the studio you do a lot of big bands. You moan up on your reading and you know you're constantly reading charts and perfecting that playing in sections and stuff.

Judd Miller: 22:29

But the smaller group thing was more like a jazz thing and then to do that maybe at the baked potato or all that jazz that was a club that didn't exist that long but I remember that recording to then go in the next morning and maybe having to play something really legit or something. It was just. It's something I was able to do at that time but grew away from wanting to do that when I started playing the evi which is not, I say, within a year of that recording you just played. So I was moving and that's a piece I wrote. I was writing all the tunes then for Pacific Ocean, or most of them. I was writing most of the tunes.

Matt Traum: 23:10

Is that a live recording?

Judd Miller: 23:11

That was a live recording, yeah.

Alistair Parnell: 23:13

So you hooked up with Nyle Steiner and then you know, did you pick it up and think, oh my goodness, what is this thing? It's? It's going to take me years to learn. I mean, what was that first experience like on the EVI?

Judd Miller: 23:26

That's a good one. I didn't know how long it would take. I said this, this I have to get into, because I was into playing the trumpet through Echoplex and all that and this was something new to me and I knew I had to get into it. And not soon after I got it, Joe Conlan, who I knew he was a close friend of mine and he was starting to write and he had a project and I got to use it. Like two weeks after I got it, I said take it to the session and you know, if you can't play it on that, play it on the trumpet, I don't care. But let's try it, let's play around with it. So two weeks after I started recording with it and then he started using it, using me for trumpet, flugelhorn and occasionally on Simon and Simon, which Simon and Simon was probably 1981 to 86. You know, somewhere in there, Simon and Simon was the early 80s, so I got to play a little of it there too. And, um...

Matt Traum: 24:30

That's the TV show here in the US.

Judd Miller: 24:32

Yeah, yeah. And then and then, maybe a year after I got, the EVI still had nothing, just the Crumar, no effects, I don't know, I just had a little boss, maybe a reverb or something, I don't know. Got a call from wonderful guitar player, Pat Kelly, who's done a lot of records, a lot of smooth jazz records, and he was music director for Donny and Marie Osmond. And he said Donny and Marie, they're going to Australia, New Zealand, and they need a trumpet player. Trumpet. I said just trumpet? Well, this is that's it, this rhythm section, some singers and trumpet- not trumpet and sax or anything. Just just trumpet. So I think, wow, trumpet, okay. And then I said to Pat you think that they might? Can I bring this EVI? Well, you could bring it, Judd, but bring it to the rehearsal, see if they like it. So I pulled it out at the first rehearsal and Donny said, wow, that's great, I love that. Play that whenever you want.

Judd Miller: 25:44

So that's where I got to, really... because I was on the road doing that and getting to play it in front of people and that was a lot of fun. You know, it was a great way to break in doing it and it would have been different if that situation was different, if there was a sax player. Then that might be strange, but it just seemed to work out and that really turned out to be the only road gig, with the exception of later on. I did some concerts with Stewart Copeland, you know, a few years ago, but that was the only road gig I ever had was with Donny and Marie. It was a great band too and just great experience to do that. So I got to break the instrument in there. Then when I'd come home, being off the road, I'd get some work on the EVI and it just kind of worked out, you know.

Matt Traum: 26:26

Did you buy it at a store? Did you buy the EVI from Nyle directly, or, I'm curious, back then, where would you get one of these things?

Judd Miller: 26:33

Probably through Nyle. And you know, Matt, I had many of them sold to you over the years and I think I had six maybe. So, you know, the Crumar comes and I had my first one and I'm playing it and I call Nyle. I say, well, yeah, I feel that screw under there and I and I'd be nice to do pitch bends. He goes oh, you want pitch bends, come on out. So I went out, I drove out to his house and he put pitch bends on and I sat there and we hung and then, uh, so now if I, when I bought my next five EVIs, he had to put pitch bends on them and then every time there was a mod, you know, changing the chord or something, I had to do it times six, you know. So I spent a lot of time at Nyle's and that was just great, being with him, yeah, and I mean, he's the creator of the instrument and it was just so nice to hang with him and do that, yeah.

Matt Traum: 27:37

And you got to watch the genius in his workshop literally working on your horn doing the surgery.

Judd Miller: 27:41

I, yeah, I sat there and, and in doing that, we could talk about synthesis and analog synthesis, and he could just share his wisdom with me while he was working on those instruments, and it's great.

Alistair Parnell: 27:56

In terms of the synthesis kind of area. Then, Judd, had you already kind of played around with some of that stuff. You started to learn a little bit of that through Nyle. You were experimenting. How was that looking?

Judd Miller: 28:09

It seems like it all started around the same time. Probably when I got the EVI I started learning about those things and I also got into. It was a while until I was able to get a MIDI. You know, if I got the EVI in 80 or 81, it wasn't until I or I had an SMS synthesizer, which was a programmable monophonic synth that was made up in San Francisco, really limited. It was not till 1985 or 86 with the Xpander, that probably 85, that I still. I don't think I had a MIDI box yet, but I was getting into synthesis. I, you know I bought a DX7. I had keyboards too, got into programming. The DX7. I was interested in. I was interested in seeing how I could tweak and, you know, listen to sound and figure out how I could change it or bring it more into my own aesthetic, the way I hear it, you know, mainly with filters or well, in the DX7, it's more of a it's a different kind of synthesis but I got into doing that making sounds.

Matt Traum: 29:27

So, Judd, moving on to your movie career, your movie soundtrack career, Karate Kid was your first EVI studio gig, right? With Michael Boddicker?

Judd Miller: 29:36

Major movie. Major movie because I I was doing some, you know like, like I said, on Simon and Simon with Joe Conlan, yeah, but as far as a movie, as far as movies, the first movie I played on, probably within a month of Karate Kid II, which I believe was March of 86, I played on a movie called Pretty In Pink, which was a John Hughes, it was Molly Ringwald. That was an. I remember playing on that at the time. For Pretty In Pink, I could tell you this I just had the Xpander. I had no sampler or anything.

Matt Traum: 30:11

The Oberheim Xpander.

Judd Miller: 30:12

Yeah, yeah. But then Karate Kid II took. That was March of 86. That that really started things, I would say. And the link for that was when I was doing Simon and Simon. I got to work with Michael Boddicker who was one of the musicians in the Simon and Simon band and he said, wow, that's a cool instrument. You know, I've been working with Nyle, with Maurice. They had done Witness. He said it might be nice for Maurice to meet you because I could see that, Maurice, he likes experimenting with electronics and he might like having two of you because you and I are different and you would complement each other and it might be a really cool thing. So that was that.

Judd Miller: 31:03

But for Karate Kid 2, Michael recommended me to Bill Conti because it was a bit of improvisation with the ethnicity of the pan flute shakahachi sound and he thought I would be a good fit there. And Bill had known me because I played on Rocky II and Rocky IV. I played trumpet in those. So Bill goes oh, I know, Judd, he plays trumpet, he plays this other instrument now. Okay, let's check it out. So they showed up in a NAMM show. I think it was like in January of 86. And I was playing there with the band and then Michael Potter said yeah, let's give it a try. George Zamfir did Karate Kid I. He can't be here for Karate Kid II, so you'll do it on your EVI. I said, OK, well, I don't have a sampler, I don't have that sound. He goes, oh, don't worry, we'll, I'll get you hooked up with that. I have pan flute sounds, we'll get together.

Judd Miller: 32:01

But Michael was really quite busy at the time and was getting closer to the first session at Paramount. To be honest, we didn't get to try that sound out until about a half hour before the session started. I had never played a sample before a half hour of having to play that. And that was a 96-piece orchestra at Paramount and I was right up at the front of the orchestra and that was now. That was nervy also. But I know I could do that because with the EVI if you have to come in on any note, you know the note is there. You don't have to worry about the note not being there, it's. You know I'm in on a high C, really soft. You could do it, you know. So I felt better about that and I was comfortable playing it because I had been playing the EVI for probably five or six years. So I felt comfortable playing it. But I never played the sound.

Judd Miller: 33:00

So Michael hooked me up to his Emulator. It was an Emulator 2 and there was the sound, but all we could control was the volume and it had his own built-in vibrato and everything. It was like a South American quena or something and it just it worked. I couldn't. I wasn't controlling filter or anything. I had very little control, just the volume, and I was used to playing the analog sound of the Crumar or the Xpander with some filter, because I think that's really important to just be able to brighten the sound if you blow into it. So whether I played soft or loud, it was the same for Karate Kid II. Um, they started with the main title. I don't know how long it was, it could have been three, four minutes and we did 24 starts on that, which was a lot. I played it all. Every time was great. They were just making adjustments with the picture. So that was it. I had never been more nervous in my life than for that date and as soon as it started I just did it and it was great.

Alistair Parnell: 34:11

Let's take a little listen. I've got that here. Sounds pretty good to me.

Matt Traum: 34:55

So you're recording this live in front of the orchestra.

Judd Miller: 34:58

I was recording live with a 96 piece orchestra, wow, and I just played that at the end. And if we did that again I played something else, or something else. That was my thing at the end and I was going I said, well, it's the first time I'm playing this sample, well, how long, what could I do with it? You know, I just played it. You know I I didn't even know what it was going to be really cause, but I went with it.

Matt Traum: 35:27

Nothing like trying things in a Hollywood studio in front of 96 string players and... wow!

Judd Miller: 35:34

Right. At the end of that beautiful, that whole cue there, yeah, it was really nice. So that was yeah, that's probably yeah. Then so Karate Kid II. Then for Karate Kid III, George Zamfir was available for that, but he could only come in. He could not come in and play with the orchestra. He was his schedule.

Judd Miller: 35:56

So Bill Conti said come in and play Karate Kid III with the orchestra. I'd rather have you on the soundtrack than him. But he's got the name, you know, and they're paying him a lot of money, so he'll do that. And uh, you come in and play it, you'll be going direct, but and you'll get paid, just what you get paid, and all that. But I'm sorry to say it won't be in the Karate Kid III score, you know, because it'll be. George said, hey, great, so that's what happened. But uh, and I played really well on that. And the engineer, Danny Wall, and months later he said I got something for you. He handed me a cassette of most of the cues I played on for Karate Kid III that weren't in the movie, in the soundtrack. He made a mix. He said you played so nicely on this. I made you a mix of what you did with the orchestra and he gave me that. For him to do that was really very special.

Matt Traum: 36:52

And you did some sessions with Nyle Steiner. I think you mentioned a little bit about that. What was it like to work with two EVIs in a studio?

Judd Miller: 37:00

Okay. So with Nyle, most of the stuff we did. We did a lot of movies with Maurice. I counted I think I did three dozen movies with Maurice, and probably Nyle the same.

Judd Miller: 37:13

Working with Nyle was great. I mean, I think Gorillas In The Mist is a really good example of how we, you know we did things together doing the you know these ethnic things and everything, and it just worked out great. And Maurice Jarre, it was such a pleasure working with him. He had his electronic ensemble and he knew how to cast, to give to who to give what part to. Even you know there was Michael Boddicker, Ian Underwood, Ralph Grierson, Rick Marvin, you know keyboards, just fantastic synth players. But he knew which synth you know keyboard synth to give the part to, or whether to give something to Nyle as opposed to. He just knew how to do that.

Judd Miller: 37:59

And to hear Maurice's scores, realized by this electronic ensemble, who was really cool, uh. And you know, I mean the first evidence was, of course, Witness, which was the movie before I, um, before I started working with Maurice. Witness was right before. And Nyle... I mean the barn building scene and all those scenes with the synths and everything the analog sound. I guess it might've been around the same time, hard to say of Chariots Fire. You know there was this was that period there in the mid 80s, you know that, you know. And then there was Miami Vice and there was what Stewart was doing on The Equalizer and it was all kind of happening there. These this electronic ensemble thing was happening. And to do that with Maurice was just the greatest, is great. And with Nyle was really fun working with Nyle.

Matt Traum: 38:56

Wouldn't that be fun to get the guys together, the Maurice Jarre electronic ensemble, and reproduce some of that stuff live again, wouldn't that be fun?

Judd Miller: 39:03

It would. Yeah, I don't know if it'll happen, but I mean Ian is. I haven't seen Ian in a while. Michael, I keep in touch with Ralph Grierson. I keep in touch with. It's amazing because if you would ask a keyboard player or an aisle or me, well, come up with a sound, come up with a sound. I mean, this is the first time you know in a session to be asked come up with a sound. You know if you're an orchestral player, you know and you're a violin player, just not come up with a sound. You're going to play the part or play the trumpet, just not come up with a sound. You know You're there to execute the music. But this just opened up a whole new thing. You know, asking musicians to you know, come up with sounds or something.

Matt Traum: 39:56

Essentially creating an instrument- let alone playing the music.

Judd Miller: 40:00

Come up with a sound or come up with a part. I mean, going back to Karate Kid, you know, play this sound and then at the end, just you know, play what you want as the cue fades out, or something, you know. I mean that's kind of like a jazz thing in a way. It's like an improvisational thing, but not on the trumpet anymore. It's with sounds, it's just a different... it really switched my way of thinking about things. You know to do that.

Alistair Parnell: 40:31

So the whole creating sound thing, you know, obviously that's been a massive part of what you've done. Does that lead us on nicely to ask you about meeting Michael Brecker, because you did some sounds for him? Are we in a similar kind of time frame now?

Matt Traum: 40:49

Who is this guy, Michael Brecker, Judd? Have you ever heard of him?

Judd Miller: 40:51

No.

Matt Traum: 40:55

E verybody talks about him like uh, you know...

Judd Miller: 40:57

Uh it was circa, circa 1971. I heard Michael. I had read this article in town beat about a group called Dreams and I went on, got that record and it just blew my mind uh, that album was so good, the first Dreams album. I got to see that band and I moved out here in 72, so I saw that band in 71, 72 down at the Village Gate, downstairs the Village Gate. I saw Dreams and there was Michael and Randy and Billy Cobham and it's just incredible seeing that. So that's when I first heard Michael. And then even going back to the album before, which is an album called Score S-C-O-R-E, which is Randy Brecker's album on Solid State, that might have been Michael's first recording session. He was maybe I don't know, 19. That was really cool. But then there was a Horace Silver album with Michael and Randy In Pursuit Of The 27th man. And then you know Michael, yeah, through the Brecker Brothers and everything. And then I remember when I was on the road with Donny and Marie somebody said, yeah, you know Michael's playing the EWI now and he just got an Xpander. And I remember being in New York. We were there with Donny and Marie and I went into Manny's, which is on 48th Street and I saw the or it could have been Sam Ash, one of those music stores, and I saw the Xpander and probably got, you know, ended up getting one 1985, 86. And Michael still hadn't done a record yet, and then probably 86, 87, I was sitting at home. So at 86, 87, I was already working, you know, with Maurice. You know, and then with Nyle, with Maurice, and then working with other composers, at that time with Bill, you know just, it was starting at around 86 is when I t started for me on the EVI, you know, getting work.

Judd Miller: 43:11

And then a few months later Nyle called. He says hey, there's a guy here, you know he wants to meet you. I said... Nyle lived about 40 minutes away. I said who is he? His name is Michael. His name is Michael Brecker. I said what he wants to meet you. I'll be right there.

Judd Miller: 43:31

I got in my little. I had a Fiat Spider, a little sports car, two seats with a small rumble seat in the back, white with red leather seats, and I drove out there. I had my Xpander in the trunk and I set it up and I played some sounds. We were there for hours and then it was getting late and Mike said, yeah, I think I better be getting back to my hotel. He was staying in, I think, in Beverly Hills and Nyle was out, like in La Cañada. It's a good distance. I think I'll call a cab. I said no, no, no, I'll drive you, you know. So I took him back to his hotel I think the top might have been down because he was tall. I thi nk maybe you know the convertible Fiat had a low top, and I drove him back. I said that was great and um, wow, okay, I'll see you later. And then that was that. And then maybe a few months later, maybe in June or May or June, he called me he's, hey, it's Michael Brecker. I said wow, yeah, wow, he goes "by any chance are you going to be coming into New York? Because I'm going to be working on my first album and I'd like you know to run. You know, I'd like you to hear what I'm doing on the, on the Matrix 12 or Xpander" let's call it an Xpander for easier sake, but he had the Matrix- 12.

Judd Miller: 44:51

I liked going into New York. I said, yeah, I'm coming in. So I made it my point to go in and we got together and he was living in an apartment in Chinatown. It was two blocks from the edge, two blo cks from the bowery. I think that was one of his albums, Two Blocks From The Edge. Anyways, just hanging with him was awesome and he played me some of the things he was doing with the Xpander, I would say, starting with Original Rays.

Judd Miller: 45:24

So for the first time I'm hearing... it always fascinated me, being a monophonic, like a trumpet player, to play one note and only be able to get one note. You know, that's it. Play one note. And just to digress a little bit, it was around 1985, same time a friend of mine introduced me to a trumpet player. That the album. It came to me at a time where I was still playing trumpet but also playing EVI and the album was called power spot and it's an ECM record and it was John Hassell and I heard John Hassell. He's playing trumpet but playing through a Harmonizer. So there's where I heard the fourths.

Judd Miller: 46:10

And then two months later, Michael's playing you know, the Xpander and I hear the sus chord with the rotating three notes under it and I go, wow! And I know Robbie Kilgore. I've never met him. I hope to meet him sometime. If you're out there, email me. But anyways, he came up with this concept of the rotating mode and you know and all that, and it was just brilliant. So that was Robbie's idea.

Judd Miller: 46:39

The only thing I maybe did was listen a little and go well, maybe you like the way the filter's opening, maybe is it a little too bright, want to mellow it a little, and it's not much, just listened and made slight things. But uh, that was just a great record. I mean that turned some heads there and then that established the thing where we got together. Um, maybe a couple of times a year, you know I'd go in and get there at 10 in the morning. You know, maybe wherever he was living, you know, moving from how place to place, and before you know it'd be 10 at night and you know we hadn't eaten or done it. We just sat there and played sounds and worked on stuff and everything. It was really. It was great. He was. What a beautiful soul humanity. Uh, above his. I mean he's playing, unbelievable, but more than that, just the person he was.

Matt Traum: 47:37

I've heard that from everybody. Everybody who's met him has said the same thing never a bad word about him, no, no, it's just beautiful, and his family and everything.

Judd Miller: 47:49

It's really great. Alistair, do you know who Michael Brecker graduated high school with?

Alistair Parnell: 47:54

I don't.

Judd Miller: 47:55

Benjamin Netanyahu.

Alistair Parnell: 47:57

Re ally really? Wow, that's amazing.

Judd Miller: 48:00

Yep.

Alistair Parnell: 48:00

He's been in the news quite a bit recently.

Matt Traum: 48:08

So, Judd, one of those, another one of those things that people don't know about you is that you played saxophone with uh Barbara Streisand. Can you tell us, uh, how that worked out?

Judd Miller: 48:17

My God okay okay, so go back to 1992, Bill Clinton running for president right around this time I mean so 92, that's 32 years ago, yeah, that's eight elections ago um, and he had a big event and Barbra Streisand came out of retirement and they put together a really great rhythm section and everything for her to perform. And they wanted to have two. They wanted two EVI and an EWI. So Joel Peskin was there. We we all know, Joel and me, and it's just a great band. John Robinson, Dean Parks, Neil Steubenhouse, Randy Kerber.

Matt Traum: 49:05

Was Nyle on that one?

Judd Miller: 49:06

Nyle wasn't there, it was me and Joel.

Matt Traum: 49:09

Yeah, Nyle did the One Voice album. I think that was a live recording, but that's different.

Judd Miller: 49:16

Nyle traveled with her to, I think, to China and stuff. It's just a different thing. So I was there and Randy Kerber might have put the group together, I don't know. So there was this one tune. It Had To Be you and she wrote new lyrics to it and it had to be you. George Bush wouldn't do it and George Bush, he was a one term president. It was a yeah, that was it, because Clinton won. Ok, so getting to the thing.

Judd Miller: 49:46

So on my part, for it had to be you, it was like like a flugelhorn type horn solo that I got to improvise when she was singing, you know. Later on, you know behind her, and on the third day of rehearsal or whatever, just after we rehearsed it and it was kind of locked in, she said you know what, Bill Clinton is a sax player. It shouldn't I like that sound, but it should be a sax solo, because you know why are we using that? And Joel, my good friend, Joel, who was best man at my wedding in 1991, the year before, uh, Joel had his tenor there and he's a hell of a tenor player. I mean played on a lot of hit records and a lot of sessions, also up until that point and even beyond that point. So he had a sax there to play because Dionne Warwick, I believe, was opening.

Judd Miller: 50:41

She opened it and did Amazing Grace. So he's there to play. But he was not there to play sax with Barbara. It was supposed to be all electronic. So but Randy said oh, Joel, you played on the just Judd. Sorry, let Joel play it. He has his sax there.

Judd Miller: 50:57

And I jokingly said well, but I have a sample of Joel. And I did have a sample of Joel and I, just as a joke, started playing it and Barbara said oh, I love that sound, let's go with that. So I ended up playing a sample of Joel in that concert behind her, while he sat there sax in front of him, and he said he said you, and then he said mf, I can't say you were, you were the only person I could accept this from, let's say, a part of the male anatomy. I'm sitting here with that in my hands and a sample of me. That is crazy, you know, and that's the way that went down. And then, after Joel and I were walking through the audience just saying hi to people. Joel knew David Foster, and David came up and said hey, hey Joel man, good to see you, man who was playing that solo? You were just sitting there. It was like like like a Larry David episode, like. So that was that. Yeah, I did get to play that behind uh, behind her. A sample of Joel, yeah.

Matt Traum: 52:09

You and Joel did some, uh, comical things in the studios too, didn't you tell me once you were messing with his setup on a break and he came back and everything was backwards or something?

Judd Miller: 52:19

Oh, we were getting to ready to make a take and I went to his and this was a note with a, well, maybe a 35 piece orchestra. The composer was cool and it was. It was loose. You know, as far as you know, little you could, you could do. You can't do that anymore. Everything, everything is really streamlined now there's. There's no more of this. It's not as loose and not as much, maybe not as much fun. We used to say that's kind of old school where guys had fun, you know. But as the work got, you know less things change. You know the way sessions are handled and everything.

Judd Miller: 52:56

But in any case, we had like a minute or two before making a take and I got somebody to get Joel's attention and I reached over to his Xpander and I reversed the tracking so that if you blew into the sound well, normally you blow into a sound, it gets louder, but in this case, if you blew into it, it got softer. I totally reversed it. So then, uh, he sits down and they're like getting ready to count off and always on a session, uh, playing a synth sound, you just kind of tap it to make sure the sound is there and the phones you know so. So Joel just tapped it, but it was really loud like bop, because playing soft it was the loudest. And then he kind of blew into it and it got softer. He said, hey, stop, what'd you do here? And they were counting off one, two. So I just pressed the plus and minus button and he was ready to play. So it was all fixed.

Judd Miller: 53:51

But then on the next session I think it was for the same composer. The composer said let me hear your sound. It was supposed to be like a square wave, like a clarinet sound. Uh, there was Xpander also. Uh, so I played the sound and it was, uh, not a square wave, it was some other sound, you know. And he goes no, that's not the sound I want, Judd. So I said, oh, that's weird. So I went to a different sound. So I put it back on the square wave and I played again and it went to another sound. So I noticed Joel, I noticed in the back there's like a pedal for advancing sounds. Joel put a pedal for me. He was stepping on it right before I played, so it went to a different sound. If anybody did that now in the studios, that'd be it, that'd be their last gig, you know, because no joking around like that. But we did it at times where, uh, it was okay, you know it wasn't as uptight, you know, back then it was fun. I knew Joel. Joel and I were both in the movie sidelining in 1976, New York, New York, which was the Martin Scorsese film with Robert De Niro and Liza Minnelli, and we were both in that big band, as was Grant Geissman. He was sidelining on guitar.

Matt Traum: 55:11

From Chuck Mangione fame, Feels So Good, the great solo that he played on guitar.

Judd Miller: 55:15

And all the great playing he's done since you know all the albums and writing music for TV shows and everything he's he's done very well. But that was fun. That's kind of where I met Joel. So I've known Joel almost 50 years and I know at the beginning there with the Akai and everything, he was very instrumental in getting that off the ground with Nyle and Michael. They did that video and making the connections and everything.

Matt Traum: 55:43

Yeah, he was a big liaison, I think, between Nyle and Akai to get that happening right.

Judd Miller: 55:48

Yes, Joel makes things happen. He's got a nice company now makes mouthpieces. Retro Revival for saxes and stuff.

Matt Traum: 55:56

So Alistair and I both have this recording that we always talk about. It's your live luncheon recording of Wichita Linemen with your group from 2011. Should we have to play that and maybe you can comment a little bit on that? Um, goosebumps on that one.

Judd Miller: 57:00

Wow, that sounds great. I haven't heard that in a while. That was from a YouTube video that was at my kid's high school as Agoura Munch Madness, with three of my favorite musicians. The bass player was Dominic Genova just, I've known him for over 50 years. He just moved to an island off Seattle like three weeks ago, and Rocky Davis UCLA keyboards. And the percussionist- interesting, he's fantastic. Brian Kilgore. I just got together with him last week and I realized that since that gig, which is 13, 14 years ago, I have not played live much, with the exception of playing with Stewart. So I haven't played more than 20 times live since that live recording. So it was nice to hear that. Yeah, that was great. It was just my kid's high school for a benefit, playing outside.

Matt Traum: 58:00

That's flugelhorn. It sounds like flugelhorn sound on the Kontakt, or what is that that we're hearing?

Judd Miller: 58:06

That is Kontakt. That's the same sound. I used...

Matt Traum: 58:11

"Sotto Voce"?

Judd Miller: 58:12

Soto Voce, same sound. But the interesting thing is, you know I overdubbed my part but Michael was there when I played that. We were both in the studio that week for that Charlie Haden record. I was there like a fly on the wall because I only worked on two tunes on the record but I asked if I could just be there to just listen. It was a great week because it was Charlie and and Mike and uh Brian Blade and Brad Meldau and then there was uh string orchestras arranged by either Jeremy Lubbock or Alan Broadbent, so it was quite a thing. You know it's Charlie's record. I think it's called American Dreams, that was the records, nice record. But Sotto Voce was a Vince tune, Vince Mendoza. Yeah, it's called American Dreams, that was the record, nice record. Yeah, it's a beautiful tune.

Matt Traum: 59:38

We have a connection there. Vince Mendoza was just finishing up at Ohio State University when I was starting there and I remember him having a big band. You know they were pretty well known for the big band there at Ohio State but he had his own big band that he put together of his players and his players and they would rehearse up in one of the cafeterias and I'd go up there and watch them. But it's kind of interesting how it's a small world there. Yeah, you've done a lot with Vince huh?

Judd Miller: 1:00:03

That's an interesting connection because if we go back to when I had my Pacific Ocean band playing trumpet, 1979, I said Baked Potato Potato. You know, if musicians had gigs that paid money, you know they would, you know, maybe try to get out of doing Baked Potato. The first drummer I ever worked with in LA, his name was Bob Zimmitti, fantastic percussionist drummer, great career, still a great friend. He was the drummer in Pacific Ocean, but he was starting to get busy doing studio work so he had to bail on some. We had Monday nights at the Baked Potato. So Jerry Steinholtz, one of the great percussionists who played with Dave Grusin and Lee Ritenour, just wonderful guy. He said I'll get a drummer for tomorrow night and the drummer was Peter Erskine. So, uh, it's when peter was living here around the time of weather report and then before he moved to New York, you know, in the early 80s. But he came back though. Peter played with us at the Baked Potato, but that's just, I was just playing trumpet and flugelhorn, but that was great. And then I ran into Peter after 1979, we're going to 1989 now. So he spent a whole decade just doing all those great things and everything and I ran into him at the NAMM show in 89. And he gave me a copy of a CD that he did I think it was Motion Poet and I hadn't seen him or spoken to him in those 10 years. He introduced me to Vince because I said, oh, these arrangements. He says, oh, I'm going to put you in touch with Vince. So Vince then called me and Vince was working on an album called Animato, an ECM record, John Abercrombie record, where Vince, I believe, wrote six of the eight tunes on that record and it's John Abercrombie and John Christensen, on bass. Vince programmed all the keyboard parts. He wrote the tune and I realized all the sounds, the synth sounds on that record, from keyboards to any percussive things. I took Vince's sequences and realized the sounds. So all the synth sounds on there and for an ECM record back in 1989, that wasn't that common. So that's a nice album to check out.

Judd Miller: 1:02:16

I was getting more into programming sounds. I couldn't play the keyboard parts but I was able to then take them and come up with sounds to enhance what Vince had, you know, to maybe add to what he had or replace or whatever. And I got to play some EVI on it too. I would say mostly for aesthetics and whatever I think it was. All Xpander, I don't think I played any samples on that, there's a lot of. I used to have a rack of TX816s which were eight DX7s, so there's a lot of mallet sounds in there, real sequency stuff. There's. That's in there and then there's other cool sounds, so that was great.

Judd Miller: 1:02:56

Working with Vince on that Vince's is just amazing. Vince did two records start here and instructions inside and I got to do the synths on those records too. Vince did a big band record before anything uh, which I, I I didn't know him then. That was more, I guess earlier, like 86, 87. I don't know. So I worked on those two records, Start Here, and Instructions Inside. I still listen to those records. They're just brilliant records. And I got to go I think it was 1990. Vince was going to score possibly score a Korean film and we got to go to Seoul, Korea, to sample Korean instruments and I got to use one of those sounds on a Jimmy Haslip record which I think was called Red Cloud. I don't know if that's one of the cuts that I supplied, but anyways. So just great memories. It seems like it was just yesterday, but it wasn't just yesterday it's, you know, it's 35 years ago.

Matt Traum: 1:04:06

Well, we can play that Jimmy Haslip, Red Cloud. I think it's track 17.

Judd Miller: 1:04:10

Let me tell you about this. So we purposely kept the the sound sampled, as is not original tuning, and when we did it, I think Randy was putting on the trumpets on it. If it's the cut I'm thinking of, and he says could you take that sound out? I can't, it's just throwing me the pitches all over the place. So okay, but let's see if that's the cut, let's see if you have it. Thank you.

Matt Traum: 1:05:28

That's a Vince Mendoza composition.

Judd Miller: 1:05:29

Yeah, so you know to have that harmonium in there. You know the stringy sound. All that stuff you know are all synth sounds. But then Randy's in there playing the harmonium trumpet and Jimmy. That Arc is a great record and Jimmy to this day is one of my closest friends Jimmy and Nancy the two of them. Those were great records. So thank you for playing that.

Alistair Parnell: 1:05:55

I was just talking to Matt earlier. Judd, I actually went to see the Yellow ackets over here in the UK. I guess it was. It might've been eight or 10 years ago, Of course. I mean, you know I'm a sax player firstly. So Bob Mintzer right, I'm going to see Bob Mintzer. Fantastic, I spent the whole of that evening absolutely riveted to Jimmy Haslip. He's just so kind of enigmatic when he plays. You know, it's just I could not take my eyes off him. It's absolutely phenomenal player.

Judd Miller: 1:06:27

And a phenomenal human being also.

Alistair Parnell: 1:06:40

Well, that seems like a good place to break for this first episode of this two-parter. I must say I'm finding it absolutely incredibly interesting and I'm looking forward very much to the second episode. So for now, thanks, Matt, for being our co-host, as always, and, Judd, we thank you for your time and we will see you in the next one. Thank you.