Matt Traum: 0:02

Welcome to the Aerophone Academy Podcast with me, Matt Traum.

Alistair Parnell: 0:06

And I'm Alistair Parnell. Join us each month as we discuss the wonderful world of wind controllers and you get the very best information and answers to your questions.

Matt Traum: 0:18

The Aerophone Academy Podcast is the source for accurate information on wind controllers, so make sure you subscribe to the podcast.

Alistair Parnell: 0:26

And while you're at it, why not check out www. isax. academy?

Matt Traum: 0:32

and patchmanmusic. com.

Alistair Parnell: 0:36

Welcome back everybody to episode 10 of the Aerophone Podcast, and this is actually part two of our podcast series with the great Judd Miller. We've already heard a substantial amount of information from Judd, with some fantastic stories. If you haven't heard that one already, you definitely need to go and listen to podcast number nine first, and this is the continuation of that great interview with Judd Miller. So welcome again, Matt Traum, and welcome, Judd.

Matt Traum: 1:10

Thanks, Alistair. This is wonderful and I'm really happy to have Judd Miller with us here. And the second part, and we'll dive more into his illustrious career and welcome Mr. Judd Miller.

Judd Miller: 1:22

Thank you. It's nice to be back for part two. I'm enjoying this and want to thank you guys very much for letting me share my story. Thank you.

Matt Traum: 1:34

Well, we think it's important. You're one of the great pioneers of the wind controller and you've done so much in your career. I think it needs to be finally documented somewhere. So, short of you writing a book, I think this will do a pretty good job of getting that information out. So let's continue now.

Judd Miller: 1:49

Thank you.

Alistair Parnell: 1:56

So we've got some of the clips. What we'd like to do, Matt, am I right? We're going to play a few clips and then maybe get Judd just to comment briefly after? Is that what you want to do, Matt?

Matt Traum: 2:06

That's great. It's one thing to talk about music, but we want to hear it. So, yeah, let's go through. We got several that we picked out that we like, and maybe Judd can comment afterwards.

Judd Miller: 2:35

So that was the start of Vince's "Instructions inside. Yeah, I had that kind of that Quena sound, you know, similar to Karate Kid. The percussion was incredible. I know Manolo was on it and maybe Luis, I'm not sure. Some was done in New York, some here. I guess the idea for some of the orchestration had some like clarinet-y things, low and everything. So maybe I assigned that to the keyboard or maybe that was Vince's instruction. Not sure there, but I liked that cut.

Alistair Parnell: 3:06

Yeah, let's hear another one.

Judd Miller: 3:15

Thank, you love it. Oh yeah, so that's Jimmy's, yeah, opening to Jimmy's record. Jimmy, and I wrote that as just an improv. I probably played that part. That's very John Hassel-esque in that sus chord thing. As far as all that percussive-y thing, that's a lot of TX816. And then drum machine. Peter laid some hi-hat and some drums on. That was just something we did, probably in a couple of hours, and then Jimmy just doubled, you know this line and everything, and we just kind of put that together kind of an improvised thing, yeah.

Judd Miller: 5:29

Ah, this is John Patitucci, circa '89. Alex Acuna on drums, uh, John Beasley, Patitucci. Uh me, I don't know what my Toots sound. That's Xpander. That was an interesting session because I hadn't gone in and played live with a group of players of that caliber on a jazz record. Thank God I didn't have to solo on that tune. You know I play the melody. It's an interesting key. It might have been like in Eb minor or something. It was like in a anyways. But and that's John's tune and that's a pretty good Xpander harmonica, one of my favorite sounds. You know, this is a period, you know, where Toots was real popular and a few years before that Offramp album, you know, with Pat Metheny, Lyle Mays.

Matt Traum: 6:07

You know that it's just great, great sound, great sound yeah, I struggled for days trying to get a harmonica sound on my Xpander here. I don't know if I got it as close to yours, but uh, that's a great sound. To think that that's coming from an analog synth, that's impressive programming

Judd Miller: 6:22

And that was a lot you know. to play that live that's no overdub there you know those guys, they just you know there was that. And then there was a cut with Dave Weckl. I wasn't used to playing with a, you know I was doing, I wasn't doing that kind of playing then but it was great hooking up with John, you know. Then you know you know that was the start of his making his records and stuff, you know, probably in the late '80s, and he's done so well, so yeah.

Matt Traum: 6:47

So that was a John Patitucci album and that track was called "Painting", I believe.

Judd Miller: 6:51

Yeah, and to play with Alex was one of my well, and John Beasley, oh, just great.

Matt Traum: 6:59

And did we play the Charlie Haden "Soto Voce" clip? Yet we talked about it. Let's play a little of that.

Alistair Parnell: 7:59

And that's beautiful, really lovely Wow.

Judd Miller: 8:04

You know, chills, know chills. I mean because that's like it's the only time that Michael and I in a recording kind of you know, even though I overdubbed it and I think he did yeah, because it was since that we played together. Yeah, even though we the way was, since that we played together. Yeah, even though the way that the two things came together and it's just a beautiful tune that Vince wrote, you know, and that's on American Dreams, that record, that's a Charlie Haden record, so that's pretty cool. Um, so, yeah, my friend Jerry Califf has a home studio. We did that during COVID. He was passing, you know, he wrote a tune and he said, hey, you want to play on it. And then, hey, you want to play. And we just kind of passed it around and that was nice. I got to use my my harmon mute sample that I did that sample in 1991. Did that sample in 1991 and I stopped playing trumpet in 1986. But I pulled it out to try to get that sample in '91 and I got it. So I stopped playing trumpet in '86.

Judd Miller: 10:21

In 1996, 10 years later, I got a call just sitting at home in the morning and Mike called me and said hey, I'm in town. I go oh, wow, you're in town, I'm doing the Playboy Jazz Festival and I'll get you and Lisa tickets. Great, he goes. But you know, Susan and I were just around today and you want to have dinner tonight, you to come in, we're, we'll go to the Ivy, we're staying in, you know near, you know near the Ivy in Beverly Hills. I said, yeah, great, tell Lisa, we're gonna go have dinner with Susan and Michael, great. And then, just a few hours later, I get a phone call. Hey, Judd, it's Tom Scott. I have a TV series, it's a summer replacement Carol Burnett Show, and you want to do that. It's going to be a small group. I said, yeah, I want to do that. This is incredible.

Judd Miller: 11:15

Like in the same day I get calls from you and Michael Brecker I mean the synchronicity of that. He goes. Oh, yeah, why did Michael call you? I said, well, he's in town and he's playing at the Playboy Jazz Festival and you know we're going to go to dinner with him tonight. And then Tom just said oh, can I go too? Can Lynn and I come? I said, oh, let me check because I was in a little weird spot here. So I called Mike back and I said, oh, he goes. Oh OK, yeah, I'll take everybody out. So there, we had a dinner.

Judd Miller: 11:50

It was the six of us and I was sitting between Michael Brecker and Tom Scott pre iPhones or any pictures but I said, look at this. I mean, look at this East Coast, you know so, you know East Coast. So Mike's on my right West Coast, Tom's on my left, and I thought this is amazing. I'll never forget that, and when I see Tom from time to time, he won't, he doesn't forget that either. It was just a great thing. So what's my point? Oh, ok, so then we're doing the Carol Burnett show.

Judd Miller: 12:26

It's 10 years after I gave up the trumpet and uh, Tom calls me the night before the taping of the next show. He goes, okay, so for tomorrow, I got the message it's a high school marching band and uh, it's just a bad band and they're gonna do the. But it's got to sound really bad, judd, because this is a high school band. Do you have a sample of a really bad trumpet? I said I'll do better than that. I haven't taken my trumpet out in 10 years. I'll just bring that and play it on that without even warming up. So I brought it and it sounded like absolute crap. And I went. You know, I slid down from the concert seat of the B flat so I kind of ended on a. It was kind of going to be teetering on the seventh up there. You know, it's just the whatever the overtone series. So I did that and it was good.

Judd Miller: 13:22

And then Tom said well, you're going to sit the next one out, judd, because the musical guest is BB King. So we have a whole other set of drums and keyboards and I'm just going to go bring my sax up there and stand and play because we're going to be on stage behind BB King. And I said but I have my trumpet, he goes. Well, take a look at the part. I looked at it. I said I could play this. So if you look at that, this is a video of BB King on a carabiner. And there I am standing playing trumpet with Tom, like wow, I hadn't played the trumpet in 10 years, but here I am playing in this little segment there. That also is something that I kind of laugh at. I kind of look back going, wow, these are just some really cool moments you know, talk about cool moments.

Matt Traum: 14:10

I have to share one here and thanks to you, Judd Miller, that, Judd, we were out in California I think we were at Disney or something and my family and my wife and my kids and Judd invites me over to his house to cook a pizza for us all and, uh, you know, we show up and who's there besides Judd Miller and his beautiful wife is, uh, Bob Mintzer and his wife and Jimmy Haslip and his wife and I'm sitting there at a table. Just uh, you know, my daughters are swimming in his pool and we're having pizza and talk about a night to remember. So I gotta thank you for that one.

Judd Miller: 14:42

It was very special oh, and Bob, yeah, when I was in New York and I did go into work on I think it was Mike's third album, now you see it, now you don't which was kind of EWI intensive. You know there's some real, there's a lot of EWI on there. So he wanted me there. So you know, if you want to say, hey, give me this kind of sound or that, you know, because it was kind of orchestrated like bass, clarinet, you know all kinds of things like that and that was great being there. And Don Grolnick produced that record and it was great being there for I don't know five days, whatever a week, and being in the studio. And the other musicians were so awesome on that Jim Beard, who recently passed away, and then the guitar player that I don't remember his name. We've got some Chinese food. After the session he says hey, you know I'm playing down at the Blue Note, come down, Bob Mintzer's going to be there. I go, wow. So I went down. It's the first time I met Bob and we struck up a conversation and it was the start of a really beautiful friendship.

Judd Miller: 16:00

And when Bob moved out here, it's got to be 12, 13, 14 years ago. He moved out to teach at USC where he had an amazing head of the jazz department and all of that, plus the WDR, all the other things he does, his arrangements he's probably the most prolific person I know. Just brilliant, just brilliant. But again, more than that, just like one of my best friends, just a great, all-around guy and an amazing musician. I heard him last month with Peter Erskine, Alan Pasqua, Derek Oles, just playing his tenor and it was just so great to just hear him play. You know it was just beautiful. So, yay, Bob, Bob and Jimmy and you, Matt, that was a great night. I forgot that we were all together great.

Matt Traum: 16:53

It's one of the great memories of my life and I appreciate that. So let's talk about- did you work with Bob Mintzer's EWI at all and do any programming for him back in the days?

Judd Miller: 17:02

A little bit. I believe the first album he played on was Greenhouse and I was there for those sessions. There was one tune that was kind of like a gigue and I might have came up with kind of an Xpander-y sound, but just that. And then there was another couple of things. You know light, not too not much, not too much programming, but you know a little bit.

Matt Traum: 17:26

Great. Shall we continue with some audio clips. We have. It looks like a City Slickers track. You want to tell us a story about this?

Judd Miller: 17:32

So that was Mark Shaiman and that's another person. So I mean, certainly, like I mentioned, some people that really got me started, like like Michael Boddicker especially. And then also there was an engineer, Joel Moss, who recommended me to Mark Shaiman because he was his engineer. And there's a clarinet part that was hard. I don't know if anybody if it could have, it was just a really hard part. So, Joel, for the City Slickers, one recommended, recommended to Mark, why don't you have uh Judd come in and overdub it? Because I could never, never, play that live, never, uh, you'll hear it. I could just never do that, so we kind of punched it in. But then for City Slickers 2, I had my uh SE 30 so I sequenced it before and that was a breeze. I just sunk it up and it just played with the orchestra live. So that was. You know, the difference of those two movies was the difference in technology, with sequencing before. But it's a pretty hairy clarinet part. So, yeah, go ahead and play it, yeah.

Judd Miller: 18:38

Go ahead and play it.

Judd Miller: 18:58

Yeah, that sounds fun. The rest is all orchestra. That's orchestra, I mean at its fullest, but it kind of fit in real nice. Yeah, hard part Listening to it. It's nice. What did I do there? Because the legato is pretty cool in that too. You know, it's kind of smushy.

Matt Traum: 19:16

Yeah, it's just right. It's not too smooth, but it's not too jumpy either. It's just perfect.

Judd Miller: 19:21

Not a lot of right angles between the notes. You know you don't hear the little individual notes. Yeah, that's good, Okay.

Matt Traum: 19:29

We've got another track here, the Clint Eastwood movie Unforgiven, big movie. That's an interesting sound. It's almost like a harmonica, but not quite.

Judd Miller: 20:04

It is the harmonica, but filter down. I purposely did that because the you know I I was thinking of, since it was kind of a western, to use that that also. The notes were a lot of the same notes but it sounded kind of different each time and that was a great scene. So through Mark Shaiman I met Mark Shaiman's orchestrator, who was Lenny Niehaus, who was a great sax player. He's a legend. And Lenny was writing and orchestrating for Clint Eastwood, so there's the connection there. And that was at Warner Studios which became Eastwood Scoring Stage, and that was live with orchestra, and that was Academy Award-winning movie, not score. So that's like 1992, I think, Unforgiven, and I had some other solos in that too. But you know, and that's kind of like old school, I mean playing sitting out there with an orchestra. I think I was sitting in the woodwind section for that, which that's really interesting, because sometimes I was in the booth away from everybody, but for that I was sitting out there, you know, next to a clarinet player, you know, or whatever, and playing. So that was nice, yeah, beautiful, yeah.

Matt Traum: 21:24

You want to do the next one, Alistair?

Alistair Parnell: 21:26

"You Look Just Like a Girl" right Again.

Judd Miller: 21:29

Oh, here's Joel Peskin's tenor sax.

Alistair Parnell: 21:31

That's it.

Judd Miller: 21:32

Okay, this is an Uta Lemper record. Yes, and it was like it reminded me of the. It was like Bossa Nova, and I said I got to go for the subtone tenor for Joel's. This is the subtone tenor. This is the second subtone this. So the Barbra Streisand- that was this sound.

Alistair Parnell: 22:30

So how is that being produced?

Judd Miller: 22:32

So that was Joel's Subtone Tenor, a sample that you know. I just played, that you know, on the EVI.

Alistair Parnell: 22:41

Through what a Kontakt or something?

Judd Miller: 22:44

No, that would be pre-Kontakt. Yeah, could have been the Roland. It's either the Roland SP700 or it could have been the Akai, the Akai S1000, I ran the outputs of that through the Xpander because the Akai S1000, I just couldn't get it to feel right. It was a mod done for the Xpander because the Akai S1000, I just couldn't get it to feel right. You know, it was a mod done for the Xpander and and I I ran it. I don't know what I how I did that then, but it wasn't contact, because that album was pre contact. I probably started using in the 2000s, 2003 or, and that that album was. I think it was before. Uh, but that was a. That was nice.

Judd Miller: 23:23

From what I heard, there might have been other parts in that of woodwinds. They actually hired woodwinds to play under it and maybe in other sections, and one of the woodwind players said who's that sax player? What a sweet sound. Well, I guess it was joel peskin, you know. Well, I guess it was Joel Peskin. You know there's two stories about the Joel Peskin sub-tone tenor Barbra Streisand, uta Lemper and the third one might be a really cool one too.

Judd Miller: 23:53

I showed up once to an orchestral date. Joel couldn't be there. So he recommended me. He got called to play EWI but he couldn't do it. He was doing something else. It was a movie, FX2, and that was for Lalo Schifrin. Lalo Schifrin and I never worked for him a legend.

Judd Miller: 24:11

So I go into the session there at fox and it was big orchestra and I'm sitting right in front of him. He's at the podium and there's a whole orchestra around. The end, um Lalo goes. Uh, okay, we're gonna start with the main title, because the director's running around going to dubbing and all over the place. So I wanted to hear the main title. Main title 1m1. So I pull out 1m1 and it says at the top of my part sax, saxophone. Okay, whatever that means. So of course the only saxophone sample I have is this sub-tone tenor.

Judd Miller: 24:49

So Lalo counts it off and after like four bars where I come in with the solo, I start playing it, and not more than two bars into it he taps his baton and he points to me with the baton. He goes no, play it on the saxophone. So I said I don't play the saxophone. So Lalo turned to the contrary. What is this? He says you didn't say you needed the saxophone, you said you wanted this he goes. Well, I want sax, get me a sax player, ok.

Judd Miller: 25:18

So they were on the phone getting a sax player and Lalo said well, ok, just play it. I want the director to hear the melody and we'll figure out. We're going to replace it later or something whatever. So I played it and then I figured I was going to be going home. So I went in the booth to listen on the playback and at the end the director looked at Lalo and said that sound, it was beautiful. It's kind of like a voice saxophone. It was beautiful, lalo. And Lalo goes. Yes, I thought of that, but anyways, I'm going to get in trouble, but no, but so that's the way that happens. Those are the three sub tone tenor stories you have there as far as Joel's sub way that happens. Those are the three sub-tone tenor stories you have there as far as Joel's sub-tone tenor.

Matt Traum: 26:07

So maybe we should go to the Defending Your Life track. And is this a trumpet that you did on this track? I don't know if it was a trumpet sample.

Judd Miller: 26:15

Could have been a trumpet sample, could have been a sawtooth, I don't remember.

Alistair Parnell: 26:20

Let's have a listen.

Judd Miller: 26:52

I don't know. It sounded like a trumpet. It sounded really good.

Alistair Parnell: 26:56

I had to when I heard that it sounded like a trumpet to me.

Judd Miller: 26:59

I had to call Joel Moss, who was the engineer for that too, and I had to ask him. I said, did that, was I replaced? He goes no, no, that's you, that's you. So that was me.

Matt Traum: 27:09

Okay, now we get to get to my hero- besides Judd Miller- is Herb Alpert. So, Judd, you got to meet Mr. Alpert, so you got to tell us the whole story- and nothing but the truth.

Judd Miller: 27:44

Yeah, yeah, I would say about 10 years ago I met this wonderful musician who's become a close friend, Eduardo Del Barrio, who, Eduardo was still to this day is very close with Herb. Eduardo did an album on A&M called "Free Play that, Herb you know, let him. It was just Eduardo's mind going crazy, but Eduardo did some beautiful arrangements. Matt, you would know the records, you know string records. But I, when I was at UCLA going back to when I just played trumpet, I don't know if I ever this is a story, I don't tell much, but there was some award show called the Scopus Awards. I don't even know what it was for. It was that Beverly Hilton Hotel and they had the UCLA big band playing there featured some of the Frank Sinatra winners. So I got to play Angel Eyes on the flugel horn. And then I was, as I was packing up at the end, felt a tap on my shoulder and I turned around and this man said hey, you've got a beautiful sound, keep it up and everything.

Judd Miller: 28:50

And it was Herb Alpert when I was 20 years old. And then my dad said you call Herb Alpert, try to talk to him. So I did go down to his studio, I went to A&M and we talked and we spent, you know, an hour or two together when I was 20. And that was it, you know. And so 20, 30, 40, 50. And then at 60, like 40 years later, after I met Eduardo Del Barrio and showed, you know, eduardo saw what I could do. He recommended me that I come in and play that for Herb and Herb said "I've been following you a little bit. You know, and I know you play this instrument. You know you want to come in and try playing on a tune/" So I went to his studio in Malibu and showed. You know, I always wanted to show him the instrument and this was great. It just synchronicity again struck and uh, I came in and, um, I listened to the track and I just thought, boy, just a nice sine wave, just something. And uh, he said, okay, put it up. So I played and played the whole. I didn't listen to it, I just just played. And it ended and he says that was great. " You want to change anything? I said, no, that was great, you want to have some lunch. So we went in that line, he fixed me lunch and we talked a bit and it was great. And then the next morning he called and he said hey, you left your shirt here, you know. I said, well, do you like it? You could keep it. If you know I don't like it, Come get it. So it's been a long time, but I'll never forget that. What a great man. He showed me his. He's just such an artist in so many ways, from his sculpting to his painting, to everything. His documentary. "Herb Alpert Is" loved it. He is, he is, I am, he is and you got, you are and you are, we're all and we wish we were beautiful.

Judd Miller: 31:02

So it was really great being part of that you know, and meeting him then and having that time with him.

Matt Traum: 31:06

Yeah, wow, what a great story. Herb Alpert made you lunch.

Judd Miller: 31:10

It's a story I'll put. We didn't get to Stewart yet but I don't know if I should get there yet, but there was a concert with Stewart Copeland in Toronto at the conservatory there and that was about eight years ago, I'd say maybe nine. It was great because, being in Toronto, after the concert I got to hang out with Bruce Cassidy. He was at the concert. He probably had an EVI before I did and I got to hang out with him. And then there's a person from Sonic Couture who's helped me a lot. His name is Dan Powell and he is just a fantastic programmer for the company Sonic Couture and they both lived in Toronto. So they came to the concert.

Judd Miller: 31:54

I was talking with him and the person who put on the concert I guess the manager of the whole place there. He said I've been looking for you, my dad wants to meet you, so I go meet his dad. His dad was Zubin Mehta. I go meet Zubin Mehta. He goes oh, that instrument, what is that? Still, you know thinking, nobody knows. Most people still haven't seen this. He said oh. I said what's an EVI?

Judd Miller: 32:17

He goes what was that sound you used at the beginning of the Rite of Spring? And another thing a friend of mine was in Israel 15, like 10 years before that so we're going back almost 20 years and he had this beautiful ram's horn on his mantle, which we call a shofar in the Jewish religion, and the ram's horn. I said, can I take that and sample it? So I sampled it probably 2005 and I sampled that. I said one day I'm going to play the Rite of Spring with this sound because I think what Stravinsky was going for straining the bassoon up in that register was to go for something that was very primitive. Over the years bassoon players have been able to play it with perfection, but I think back then it was a bit of a strain and so I played it on that. So he said, what was that sound you used? And I said I'm thinking he's asking me and now I get to it was a shofar. And he goes oh wow, why didn't Igor think of that? And I said immediately "because he didn't know me"

Judd Miller: 33:29

So that was that. And then there's a tap on my shoulder and this beautiful older woman said I just have to tell you I love the way you played and my husband would have loved to have heard you and he would have loved to have played you and he would have loved to have played with you. I'm Mrs. Oscar Peterson, and so within the same two minutes. So there's another couple of minutes of my 15 minutes of. I think I've used up my 15 minutes. No, now I'm using up my 15 minutes by you guys interviewing me, but that was a great moment.

Matt Traum: 34:02

Let's do a little of this Stewart Copeland project. It was called "Off the Score" and he took it out on the road and Judd was an EVI player on that group. It was a real interesting project and you actually went out on the road with them and I think your feature was sort of an improvisation on Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. Was that the idea?

Judd Miller: 34:20

Yeah, he said just do what you want. At the beginning, you know, of Rite of Spring, I also felt think about it. Da-da-da-da-da-da, da-da-da-da-da-da oh yes, da-da-da-da-da-da, and there's a similarity there. That's okay. There's only 12 notes, but I thought of that.

Matt Traum: 35:08

Well, let's hear a little bit of that live performance of that improvisation.

Matt Traum: 35:51

So, Judd, could you tell us a little bit about your current rig? What you're using to make sounds with your EVI, with the EVI?

Judd Miller: 35:58

It's Kontakt. However, I was playing around with SWAM. I do like that. That would be a second thing that I might incorporate, but I just I really I love everything about contact and for me it's not just the, the EVI sound, but it's what I'm playing in front of, it's what the canvas is, and the canvas is coming. You know, these other things I'm creating which might not be as melodic or harmonically motivated, but more sound motivated, and I do delve into, beside Kontakt and I do delve into, beside Kontakt, Native Instruments, Reaktor.

Judd Miller: 36:48

Which Reaktor is not a synth. It's hundreds or maybe close to thousands of synthesizers that people all over the world author and they put them up in a website and you just pick these and there's some really quirky ensembles. You know these instruments that people make and everything, and they might lend themselves more to going. Oh no, I could trigger this from a keyboard and some of these sounds come to me and it's like where are these coming from? It's almost like I have an intelligence, but these things have an intelligence and we're getting into this. Well, what's artificial and what's intelligence? Or is my intelligence also artificial? You know, I don't know. Consciousness is different than intelligence and that they'll never be artificial consciousness, never, never. Okay, I'm going off subject Because intelligence exists to me within consciousness. Kontakt is my primary. I'd say that's all I would need for any EVI work. That would be it, and maybe SWAM once in a while.

Matt Traum: 37:54

And you have a huge library of sounds that you've programmed for yourself, for Kontakt, that you've posted for free download for everybody. I, I think also. Can you give us the link to that?

Judd Miller: 38:07

Maybe no, I think I'm going to send it to Alistair. I think I will give you one or two

Alistair Parnell: 38:16

That would be... that would be worth something. Yeah, absolutel y.

Matt Traum: 38:19

What is the size of this thing? You told me the size is ridiculously huge, isn't it?

Judd Miller: 38:23

What, my library? Yeah, it is. If I were to put together everything in a multi Kontakt Multi, like everything I could possibly want to use, I could put that together in a Multi that might load in 15 to 20 seconds. Now that Multi would be close to 140 gigabytes. Of course it's not loading the same. But if you were to say 140 times 8, let's say 150, nice round number 150 gigabytes loads in 20 seconds, you would need 8 times 150 Emulators. You'd need 1200 E4s, 1200 at five thousand dollars a piece with 128 meg. Back then that would be six million dollars, 128 and you'd need a hard drive for each. Yeah, and the amount of heat and space that that would generate is ridiculous. And now that could be loaded in 15 to 20 seconds on a three thousand dollar Mac computer. Now, from six million dollars to 3000. And you know, 10 years from now, if we're all still here on earth, you know you'll say, well, I spent $3,000. Now I could do it for a thousand. It just keeps getting.

Judd Miller: 39:53

But that's just a ridiculous concept to think that a floppy disc you know they may, they were maybe a dollar. Also those blue floppies and I don't know. 150 gigabytes, how many floppies is that? Is that 15 million? I don't know, it's ridiculous, that's crazy. Yeah, so Kontakt. I don't foresee switching to anything else ever. Kontakt can handle everything and the way it feels and everything. I'm just so used to it and that's my instrument. And then I build instruments within that instrument, you know.

Matt Traum: 40:29

So what do you see happening in the future? What would you like to see as far as, maybe, EVI instruments or software? Do you have any comments on what you might see in 10, 15 years, from now, 20 years, or do we have everything that we need right now?

Judd Miller: 40:42

Gosh, there's just so much. It's so wide open. Now I would like to just hear more things. Maybe what's behind the EVI or something, maybe a new kind of music. To me, it's not so much about the instrument, it is about the. An instrument's an instrument for somebody to express themselves, but the person expressing could express through it like michael brecker could express through this instrument or that instrument, or he could sit and play drums, or he could do this or play piano. It's just um expression. People, I hope music keeps growing in new ways, using this technology maybe not so much to replace other musicians, to try to make sounds that can't be done acoustically and to play with things like that. To in contact for the last, uh, since 2016, so that's eight years.

Judd Miller: 41:48

It's called Granulate 2, the number two. Uh, I'm not saying this is an instrument for wind synthesis, maybe it is. That's up to whoever wants to play with it. But what it does, it deals with freezing time. Uh, it's a granulation program and what's interesting is you can do this within Kontakt through the scripting that Kontakt has. It's just a beautiful script, like I could take my performance of the opening to say that thing that Stewart the writer, or anything you could take a piece of recorded music, put it in there and then zero in on a split second of it and make that split second last forever. You're dealing with time and space in a way not horizontally, like most music is. You play a sound and it goes from left to right over time. This granularization freezes it and brings attention to a split second that, as a human, you couldn't pick up on that.

Alistair Parnell: 42:52

It's like a photograph, right, it's that split second in time.

Judd Miller: 42:56

Exactly. It's more like a gif. Almost it's a photograph that could be a photograph, or it's a photograph that could be a photograph, or it's a photograph that could be a photograph, like a live photograph on an iPhone, where it, and it keeps it keeps jiggling between it. Um, yeah, uh, it could jiggle between it so it appears to be stagnant, but it's not. If you were to take, like, say, the sound of uh, you hit a bell bing, so as soon as you hit the bell, it's dying away already. I mean, or a keyboard bing, just there's.

Judd Miller: 43:29

You know there's an attack and it dies away. But in that attack, in the first second, the harmonics that are moving around in that is what gives it its richness, and then it dies away. But what if you focus on that and make it into some sustained patch, yeah, and make it into something that didn't exist to bring attention to what happened in the now, the. Now it was hit, now I'm hitting it now. As soon as you hit it it's dying away and you have no control over that. Usually, you know percussion instrument, it's gone. What if you can hit it and then sustain it and then maybe blow into that and make it never existed before?

Matt Traum: 44:16

So you're playing with time, really going backwards and forwards through time, using the sound as the canvas,

Judd Miller: 44:22

Exactly. to have a performance and lay it out, maybe starting on C0, you put the performance there. So at C0, you pick a start and you go wow, it's just like a note, and now I can play chords with that note, but this note was only a tenth of a second in the performance and then it goes to the next note. And what about the space between the notes? What if you freeze it there and then you're hearing these like, like pointillistic things happening. This is a very interesting program. I mean, there's other ones too, but I got stuck on granulate too.

Matt Traum: 44:59

I don't know if either of you guys have heard this, but there's some really interesting stuff out there with... They're super slowing down sound like a hundred or a thousand times slow to slow an audio file down and and then it's, it's cross fading so you're not hearing ticks and clicks and everything. So it'll take a moment in anything and it'll just freeze it there into like a sustained chord and you can move back and forth and um, it's amazingly beautiful and you can almost take any sound like that and listen to it. There's some really cool sound examples if you want into that. It's similar to what you're saying. It's freezing time almost.

Judd Miller: 45:42

It's making you stop. It's making you stop Instead of wanting to hear more notes, like going horizontally across, or hearing more chords or more melody or more anything. It's freezing it. It's almost like a meditation. It's bringing attention to a split second, like a photograph. That's the perfect way to say it. It's like a photograph Then.

Judd Miller: 46:06

In that case, well now, how do I arrange my photos in an album? You know, uh, do I have one photo and stretch it across, and that's programs like, uh, Distorted Reality or Omnisphere might be these one shots that are stretched across a keyboard, you know, as opposed to single samples for each note, like of a trumpet or a violin, but you get this ambient sound and you just stretch it across the keyboard. Well, what if that ambient sound was just on c0? And then you have another photograph and you put it on c sharp, zero and it's a completely different photograph, but you tune it to the same relationship to the c0, c sharp, and you go up the keyboard, and before you tune it to the same relationship to the C0, c sharp, and you go up the keyboard and before you know it, you could have 88 photographs on a keyboard, and the keyboard now is not relatable like a keyboard playing chords and stuff. You juxtapose photographs it could be a photograph from 20 years ago of a piece you played on 20 years ago to a piece you just played on, and you could put those notes right next to each other C, c, sharp and go, wow, that's pretty cool.

Judd Miller: 47:17

Now you're taking what you did 20 years ago, you did now, you did it now. And what you did just now, well, now, you did it then. And what you did just now, you, well now, you did it then, but that was now. So you're taking all these nows, all these photographs, all these snaps and putting it across 1 88 note keyboard some could be loops, some could be sustained sound, some could be and, seeing what you could come up with, somehow make it relatable in a controlled, in a certain key center or a certain tempo center.

Judd Miller: 47:48

So if everything's at 80 or 120 or whatever, you could juxtapose things that you could never possibly think of sitting down and doing it in the traditional way. It's not possible. So you're setting up something and then you're reacting to what you set up or other musicians. So it's a matter of setting up things just in a way. So certainly it's something I just keep thinking about and working on and that might be a new way. So, in saying, looking forward, I'd like to hear more of that, of this controlled randomness. And for me, I remember I was playing some things for Vince Mendoza and he said what you're setting up here is like a controlled randomness, and that's the whole thing. You know, are things random or controlled? In reality, we don't know the answer to that.

Judd Miller: 48:43

In reality, we don't know the answer to that, but I'm trying to take this intelligence of the computer and my intelligence and trying to put them together in a different way in my own way.

Matt Traum: 49:02

So, Judd, let's maybe go up to the present here and talk a little bit about what you've been doing in the last few years, and I know you've been working a little bit with Peter Erskine. Um, can you tell us about that?

Judd Miller: 49:12

Yeah, we get together from time to time and uh play around in his studio. Uh, I think it was last year or the year before he had some it's kind of doing it differently. He had some drum solo type tracks that he was working on and said, hey, why don't you take this and see what you come up with? Kind of opposite of usually you might do music and stuff like that and have Peter then play. It was an interesting process and it worked out really well. I'm happy with what came. Know what came up.

Matt Traum: 49:47

So we have some recordings that you sent with you and Peter. Are these improvs? It says.

Judd Miller: 49:52

Picture, just basically drums, just drums. And then I took it home and maybe I made one or two passes of ambient things you know happening around that from a keyboard, and then I did one pass with the, with the EVI. I mean it really came together pretty quickly. I just kind of listened, tried not to get too much in my head as to not having any more than that, just keeping it simple. So yeah, number two is a nice cut. You want to play that one? It's funny that you picked that one because you sent four. Uh. So yeah, number two is a nice cut you want to play that.

Matt Traum: 50:25

You picked that one because you sent four and I picked number two also. So let's, let's hear number two improv number

Judd Miller: 53:18

It's getting back to that trumpet-y, John Hassel-y, bonsurai-ish type sound. Sometimes I program it so if I hit the same note I might get something slightly different. That's a trick I do also. Technically it's crazy. But if you played, say, a C, just a middle C, and if there was only one sample on that C, then there's one sample, but it would always sound like that sample. But what if you could make it, if you could play once in a while it hits the C-sharp sample, but the C-sharp is tuned down a half a step, you see. And then if it's in kind of a random velocity because I don't use velocity when I play, I never have. So I don't have velocity layers, I just do it all with the filter opening. I think velocity layers for me were more, always more like a keyboard type concept, because on the keyboard you hit a note and that's where you are. But if you're going to open the filter from nothing and go up and put it where you want, I wouldn't want to be stuck on a certain velocity layer by the velocity I initially put in, so sure. So you know back in the day, if there was a clarinet sample library and the clarinet had four velocity layers, say pianissimo, piano, mezzo forte and fortissimo, I probably would take the forte or the mezzo forte row and just extend it over the whole range and play within that, so that each note is more like an analog. It's a waveform, subject to opening it up the same way with the filter. But then I got into the thing. Well, I could shift this map one to the left and tune it down a half step. So now, if I play a C and since I'm not using velocity, if I do random velocity, well, it might play a C. And since I'm not using velocity, if I do random velocity, well, it might play the C. That's the C. Or it might play the C sharp. That sounds like a C, but it's tuned, you know it sounds like a C because it's playing that velocity row. So you could do things like that and you can even get carried away with. You had a lot of crazy sounds where each sound could be on a different velocity row, so you could have like a shinai on a velocity and another, and every time you play if you're playing some weird ethnic thing or something, every note would be different, which is a weird concept, because then if you're playing, you know every note's different. And then you land on a note and you go oh, I like where I landed, I'll hold that. If you don't like where you landed, you just go. You know you hit it again and then you're going to be on a different thing for that note.

Judd Miller: 56:14

So there's ways to set stuff up with this randomness so that as you're playing live you don't know what you're gonna get and you just go with it and you know and you work around it. That's the feeling I got with, like when michael did his ewe stuff. You know, when he played the sax everything was like totally in command and with the ewe also totally in command. But sometimes you know he would trigger something and go, oh, oh, I got that, ok, I'll play with that. You know there were some responsive things where he, you know, just didn't, you know he had to wait to see, ok, if I trigger this, what am I getting? Or even, you know, playing those chords, if you're playing the chord and all that, if you stop and land on something, if you're landing with everything else around it where you're not quite, you know, I wish I didn't land on this, it was okay passing then you just do a little grace note and hit it again. Oh, I could stay on this now, you know, and land on it and hold it, so that controlled randomness of responding to what you're getting when you're playing. You know it's just changing. So with that thing there's there's a few different samples for each of those notes. The notes are not all the same. When I play the same C it could be one of probably six things, but they're all very close so it kind of sounds like the same thing.

Judd Miller: 57:41

So the scripting and contact, you know, I can't, I can't think of another software synth that feels like that. I mean, yes, the expand, well, expands the hardware synth. So that's different. But I'm talking about, you know, the in between the notes and just the way the filters are working. It just works for me. In that case I'm using usually I use a four pole filter which is kind of woofy and bigger, but it's real easy to just switch it to a two pole filter or a one pole. You can do whatever you want. Contact is so wide open with the scripting and everything. And the script for the legato is, you guys, is SIPS, s-i-p-s. It still out there. It was open source code. The man who wrote it, he passed away. I don't did you know him, Matt Bob.

Matt Traum: 58:30

I did have contact with him. Yeah, yeah Big Bob, I think was his name. He was a genius. he was a genius, really cool stuff that he did.

Judd Miller: 58:37

He, so that really helped a lot. You know it's the in between the notes, you know that. You know it's the in-between the notes, you know that smushiness. So I just wanted to also talk about you guys and talked about Mike and Nyle, but some other people that really influenced me, especially I would say Steve Tavaglione, who I've known him for 35 years and we share the same, I think, out of anybody, aesthetically we're in the same aesthetic place about also making sounds other than for the EWI and everything. And he works a lot with Thomas Newman and other people. He's doing very well and it's great, great. It's just so wide open that he approaches things differently than I do. Uh, in what he wants to use it's like a chef. You know there's all these ingredients out there. And then I love what Seamus is doing, Seamus Blake, and I've recently become friends with Etai. And there's a guy in England, Alistair. You know I've just met him, Matt. I don't think I've made any more money than from Matt, but no.

Matt Traum: 59:53

I am a curator for a lot of your old EVIs and I'm very proud and happy to have those. They're incredible. They play great still, isn't that amazing?

Judd Miller: 1:00:00

Yeah, it is, it is and he, you know, it know it's great that he's there to help me with those things. And Niall, I mean it started with Nyle and I saw Nyle last year I went up there to Utah. I mean the whole thing with Niall, it's just, it's like a dream, you know, in the circumstances, but that's an interview with him, you know, to talk about Apocalypse Now and all that and stuff like that, yeah, it's like just a big circle coming back. I appreciate trying to put into words. You know, through the questions you've asked and the things you've presented, to try to put into words things that musicians or artists talking about how they see reality is a very hard thing because you usually do that through the art that you do. But then to try to put it into words, you know it's kind of a spiritual thing. So I'm trying my best spiritual thing. So I'm trying my best.

Judd Miller: 1:01:14

You know it's Nyle's 80th birthday next. I plan on going there, you know, and celebrating Cool Fantastic. Did Nyle, did he ever tell you this story when he met Miles Davis?

Matt Traum: 1:01:23

Can you tell us? 'cause that's a great story.

Judd Miller: 1:01:26

Okay, so Apocalypse Now, Coppola. So Coppola had this concept to get these electronics in. So he brought in Bernie Krause from San Francisco and Patrick Gleason. Pat Gleason, I see Pat once in a while, we're good friends, we've done some music together. He's a great guy. Mickey Hart worked on it, a little percussion-wise, but also brought in Shirley Walker from Utah. Shirley Walker brought Nyle down and they worked in the studio above San Francisco there you know the ranch there and they did Apocalypse Now and that's just a great score and Nyle just sounds great on that. He has the last note of that movie, niall, that's an EVI and that's a really important movie. So he came down for that and then he worked on the Black Stallion. Then Nyle said, hey, I like doing this. I think I'll move down here. So he moved down here.

Judd Miller: 1:02:23

But when he was working on those movies the music producer, I believe, was David Rubinson and he said to Niall if you're ever in New York, you call me. I want you to meet Miles Davis because he'd love to see this instrument. So Niall was back within a year or two after to do that Ussichevsky concerto and Niall could tell the story better than me. But I love hearing tell the story. So Nyle says well, you know, yeah.

Judd Miller: 1:02:51

So I was in New York and we went to Miles Davis's apartment. He lived up the steps like a brownstone and it was a beautiful sunny day. We knocked on the door so it was David Robinson and Niall and we said who is it? So they opened the door, it was David Robinson and nile and said who is it? So they opened the door, it was, and nile goes, it's pitch black in there, couldn't see a thing. It was a sunny day, but you could see in the chair. You could see these two eyes, kind of like apocalypse now sound like Captain Kurtz, like Marlon Brando, the eyes in the darkness. Then the lights went on and it was miles sitting there and he said who is this? Oh, this is. Who is this guy, david, who who is? Oh, this is nile Steiner. You know I, I want to show him. You know he is the instrument. Oh, yeah, yeah, take it out, show me that instrument.

Judd Miller: 1:03:36

So nile takes it out and I guess Miles said put that on the floor. I'm going to stop on that, you know, he's like joking around. So nile, I think, started putting it on the floor. I I might be embellishing. But anyways, Nyle started playing it and uh, Nyle's technical finesse miles said no, stop playing all that fast stuff, just play a note. So I could hear what it sounds like. Just played a note. Uh, you know a note. He goes.

Judd Miller: 1:04:06

Yeah, yeah, I like that, like that, you hungry he says you're hungry,

Matt Traum: 1:04:13

The next logical question, right?

Judd Miller: 1:04:15

Yeah, I like that you hungry? You want a hot dog? I guess you could confirm this with Nyle. So he went and got a hot dog and he brings it out. He goes it's my last hot dog, can I have a bite? So he took a bite of it and then he gave it to Niall and I believe he even sounded and I said I'm going on tour, you want to go on tour with me? And Niall said no, I'm kind of enjoying doing my work now. And that was his meeting with Miles, Nyle, Nyle's and Miles, Nyles and Miles.

Alistair Parnell: 1:04:45

ou and Miles there you go.

Matt Traum: 1:04:48

So, Judd, there's this video that you shared with me several years ago, about 10 years ago. It's a group called Stretch and it's called Stretch at Le Café 1986. And it's an hour and 20-minute live. You're at this place and playing, and I think Niles Steiner was actually in the audience, and it's really nice, tasteful playing by your group that you were in 1986, it looks like you're playing a Crumar EVI that's been modded and is connected to an Oberheim Xpander perhaps.

Matt Traum: 1:06:01

So let me just play a little a minute of this Summer Waltz from that and then we can talk about it.

Judd Miller: 1:06:14

Thank you, that was a great stretch. That was, I think, my Well. As far as having a band playing EVI, that was the only, I mean, with the exception of playing with Stewart. That was the only band and that was from 1985 to 1989. That was the band that I was playing it with. Uh, the reason that band was formed was for that nam show that I was asked to play at, where Bill Conti and you know uh and Michael Boddicker passed by, and so it kind of all worked together. In 1986, I was playing with Stretch and that's when I met Maurice Jarre in the same month and then did Karate Kid with Bill Conti, and so all that started. So, '86 Stretch at Le Cafe, that's where I met my wife. A few years later I was playing there with a different band, but that was a really nice night and it was just nice.

Judd Miller: 1:07:12

There was a friend of really love that band. It's Cliff Hugo on bass and Tom Kellock on keyboards and Art Rodriguez on drums, who was just one of my favorite drummers to play with. He passed away many years ago, too soon. What a beautiful drummer played in the some great albums, like the Larson-Feiton Band, the album that Mike Brecker played on. What was the tune? It was a Gato Barbieri tune. It's the Larson-Feiton Band. It goes back to like the early 80s. I think it was Last Tango in Paris. I think that was the tune, but Art was a great drummer. Anyways, I love that band and I'm glad that that snip, that video exists.

Matt Traum: 1:08:15

It's so tasteful and one of my favorites just to sit down and watch and I highly recommend it to people they want to hear Judd playing.

Judd Miller: 1:08:22

Thank you.

Alistair Parnell: 1:08:26

Well, I have to say I was definitely looking forward to this two-parter and it's not disappointed in any way, shape or form. It's been so interesting, Judd, to listen to all your interesting stories. You've given us so much information on your kind of thoughts about musical interpretation and all your life history on doing your films, your recordings with so many great artists over the year. It's really just been a gem of an episode to be with you and we thank you so much for your time and for your incredible contribution to the world of wind synthesizer playing for sure.

Matt Traum: 1:09:10

A lot of his playing, I'm sure, influenced all of us and it's brought this sound to a lot of people that don't even realize they've heard wind controllers. So, Judd, thanks so much again, thank you.

Judd Miller: 1:09:22

Thank you very much, and anytime you want to continue with other things, we'll do that yeah.

Alistair Parnell: 1:09:29

And don't forget to join us in our next episode, where Matt and I will be back giving you some advice and giving you lots of demonstrations on ways and techniques of playing straight synthesizer sounds. We've already done emulations of brass, wind and string instruments, and this is back on home turf, if you like, because this will feature synthesizer sounds. We look forward to seeing you in the next episode. Thanks again. Bye for now.